Watch Evan Mark Katz on CBS talking about lying about your age. Auto-play video was annoying, removed.
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{ 30 comments… read them below or add one }
I can’t see this being a positive interview in anyway for Evan. Regardless of whether people lie or not he shouldn’t be publicly suggesting it!
I would have to agree. There are two separate issues here:
1) If you’re out and meet someone live, you might be doing a disservice by telling someone your age. I am *NOT* suggesting lie about your age, I’m saying, don’t tell them an age AT ALL. I see no problem with that. That solves both the lying and the insecurity problem. If they don’t ask your age, and you’re sensitive about it, why bring it up. Now… the other person were to say, “I don’t date people over 35″ and you’re 40, now you have an interesting issue to deal with.
2) Actually lying about your age in an email, on a dating website profile or in person is not ok. Our website is going to be designed to allow users to report others that lie whether it’s about their age, where they live, etc. If you lie about one thing and get caught, your partner (or potential partner) will be expecting other lies about other things.
I have to say, I’m very disappointed in the way the Mr. Katz handled the interview.
I am a liar. I admit it.
On the third date with my fiancee, I told her I was in fact 44 and not the 39 that my online dating profiles suggested.
“Why did you lie?” she said.
“Do I look 44,” I said.
“No,” she said, “You look in your mid 30’s.”
“And when you were looking for guys online, what age did you filter for?” I said.
“Guys under 40,” she said.
“Why is that?”
“Because the last guy I dated was 42 and he was really old.” she exclaimed.
“Aha!” I said.
“But you are not old,” she said. “You’re actually kind of immature.”
“Aha!” I said again.
Not that I would endorse lying for everyone, but if you look younger and act younger and the only way people will know is when you tell them, then at that point, age is just a number.
Age isn’t just a number when there are health issues involved and such. Modern medicine has definitely made it easy for women to continue having healthy kids later in life than ever before, it’s still an issue.
For example — if you’re a 35 year old man looking to have 3 kids ideally, even if she looks like she’s 28, there’s a huge difference between her putting 28 in her profile and her actual age of 35 or 36.
We’ve designed our site to work for those who insist on honesty and are honest themselves. I was tired of getting geography lessons (Hudson Valley and New York City are not synonymous, neither are single / never married and divorced.)
Glenn, I’m very happy for you that it’s managed to work out for you. However, I believe that’s the rare case, not the rule.
Women, so very often, list that want to meet an honest guy. They are in short supply, apparently. So why would a guy want to lie, and start a relationship based on lies.
People will tell you everything, if you only listen and observe. And by that, I mean, their behaviors will tell you everything. If they lie, they’re ok with telling lies.
If you tell the truth from the outset, you’re telling your partner, you’re 100% truthful. If you are, you should not lie about your age. If you don’t mind dating someone how also lies, go ahead and lie. But, for a more stress free lifestyle, I advocate not lying. You may have to work harder to find the date, but you won’t have to work so hard later on to prove that you are in fact a truthful person.
Thanks for your feedback, Ross and Jackie. Your disappointment is duly noted. It’s easy to say “lying is always wrong”. It’s quite another thing to understand the realities and built-in flaws of online dating, where people drop off the map when they turn 40 or 50, due to others’ arbitrary search criteria. Until you’ve spent time coaching singles who wrestle with the morality of hiding their age, you should try not to judge them.
Overall, the situation is far more nuanced than a one paragraph blog post or a three minute interview can capture. It’s absurd to think otherwise.
Dating sites should do a better job behind the scenes with the search results. That’s why I like Transparansee, which lets the sites constrict and contract search criteria automatically, showing singles a broader or more focused list of matches.
There is a lot of interesting things to be done in this regard which can help avoid the usual situation of men only searching for younger women.
Men aren’t going to get smarter any time soon, in this case it’s up to the technology to help us make better decisions about who we choose to date.
Lets take the case of a woman who is 45, but looks 30. Should she lie about her age. The odds start stacking against women once they get to 45, as there is a preponderance of guys who tend to search for women in their 20s and 30s, even when they are themselves in their 40s and 50s and beyond. That’s another matter. So should the 45 year old woman lie about her age. I would argue no. I think she should state her age, but mention clearly in her profile that her photos are in fact up to date, and that her ‘real’ age is much younger. Some 45 year olds look and behave much older. Some much younger. So, Evan has a point. But ultimately, I think his advice to people should be to state their age if they have to, but make a point of explaining that their ‘real’ age is younger. A 45 year old woman may miss out on the searches of men who restrict themselves to searching for women in their 30’s. But she is more likely to find a guy who is honest if she herself is honest about her age. It’s not ok to lie in profiles. I’m a staunch advocate of being ’straight up.’ Being honest may be the hard route in the short term. But it always works out in the long term. I’ve found it leads to a more peaceful way of life, all round.
While I understand the “why” being why people may lie or fudge the truth in profiles, the issue is where do you draw the line. Is it ok to lie by 1 year, 2 years, 5 years? That’s the real problem — in for a penny, in for a pound.
While this piece talked about age, is it ok to lie about your martial status? Say you got married at 21 to your college sweetheart, but divorced at 23. If you’re now 31, can you put single never married or must you put divorced? It’s a slippery slope.
A few constructive thoughts / suggestions:
1) Perhaps those who do look younger, feel younger, act younger, etc., might be better off taking their show on the road — i.e. meeting people in person rather than a dating site.
2) Think about the ramifications of what your lie (fudge, fib, alternate reality) might have on the person you’re going out with. i.e. Are the issues the same for a 70 year old man that says he’s 60 as opposed to a 40 year old woman who says she’s 35? You know you’re going to have to tell the truth, when do you do it.
MIDDLE GROUND: Some people insist that they only fudge their profiles to make sure that they show up in a certain category. i.e. The 38 year old woman that puts 32 year olds to shame wants to be in searches for 30-35. As a result, she puts down her age as 35. If she insists on doing this, she should CLEARLY put in the text of her profile that she’s actually 35. While I don’t think this is a great idea either… AT LEAST the person reading her profile knows the truth before contacting her.
3) Would it be a positive thing if dating sites allowed you to put either your age or a 5 year range? Would that solve some of these issues. i.e. I’d have the choice of saying I’m 36 (which I am) or saying I’m within a range. Allow users to pick from ranges like 30-34, 32-36, etc… or they can pick their actual age.
As I’ve said before, I don’t mind people putting their best foot forward, I just have an issue of actually putting down incorrect information in black and white.
I think that being honest is great – that is if you’re happy with your age and things are simple for you. But I’m a 38 year old man who lost most his formative years to serious health issues, now I’m better I find myself in no-mans land, women my age are all married/engaged and the few who are single have got serious baggage they actually put on a good guy like me..I didn’t go throught the ’stages’ of dating and gaining experience as missed all that due to depression and CFS, now I look around 7-10 years younger than my age and am not at a level where i want something serious, i need to have some fun and feel i didn’t lose my youth and the only way i can do is by lying women 20-30 bracket presume I have a great job, car and smooth confidence from lots of dating /relationship experience, the fact i’m good looking make them find it harder to understand that I am insecure/inexperienced…So i say STOP THIS BULLSHIT THAT LYING IS ‘EVIL’ OR SOMETHING AND DON’T PRETEND YOU’VE NEVER LIED, WHETHER BE IT ‘STRETCHING THE TRUTH’ TO GET A JOB OR OMMITTING CERTAIN INFO A DATE..HE HAS A CLEAR CONSCIENCE HAS A BAD MEMORY..DON’T FORGET THAT!!!
The fact is women have judged me and rejected me unfairly as i don’t fit with the assumed ‘level’ of life experience, career success etc..of a man of 37 years of age..As George Burns (comedian said) “After 90 years of life experience I can tell you I’ve learn’t one lesson, honesty is always the best policy and when you can fake that – your’e in!”
Besides lying a ‘little’ about one thing is not only common behaviour amongst humans, but actually shows a persons humanity, if you were always honest in applying for jobs but you’d been out of action from depression for several years and unemployed i guess you’d advise being ‘honest’ again…well that is BULLSHIT, as the ‘mind’ organisation found from research having ‘depression’ on your resume/cv makes you less employable than a convict…I only got a job by lying before i was always rejected for any excuse and the fact i didn’t have a reference or work experience for years…life is harsh and you have to sometimes play games to get back on the ‘inside’ as it won’t let you back at all fairly or through you being honest.,.i hate hypocrites, you’ve all lied but are now assuming the moral high ground, actually disgusting you can’t sympathise with someone hard done by like myself..
If you’re face to face with someone and lie to them. They will probably realise it. I did door to sales for a number of year, and tried both approaches. I feel people generally know if you’re bullshitting them. They also know when you’re being straight with them. You’ll gain more by being straight with people.
Especially with women, in the dating game. If you want to stand out from the crowd, try telling the truth. How many womens profiles have you seen that mention that they want to meet someone honest.
My key point here is. You don’t reeeeaallly need to lie. You’re really not differentiating yourself by lying. Just put up a photo and make sure the date is shown on it. Then mention in your profile that you’re x age, but generally hang out with people x age, and feel x age. I DO believe there’s a numerical age, and a real age. State that in your profile.
You’re definitely going to need to work harder to find someone with the truthful approach, but you won’t have to work as hard to keep them. They will appreciate you not bullshitting them and then letting them know 3 months into the relationship, after they’ve spotted your age on your drivers license, that hey, you’re actually 5 years older. The first thing that goes through the girls mind is, BULLSHITTER! what else did he lie about. And then she gets a sinking feeling, as she realises that you’re really not that different than anyone else.
And a side benefit of not lying is, your stress level goes down because you don’t have to commit to mind your dual realities. There’s only one. The truth.
(getting down from high horse)
Gabriel,
I can only speak for myself. I will say that I have maintained honesty throughout my online dating profiles throughout the years. I’m practically bald — some women don’t like that. Instead of posting photos with a hat on to get extra dates, I always made sure to have photos that showed me as “follically” challenged. My thought: my time is valuable. I had no interest on showing up on dates that would lead nowhere.
I am truly sorry for your having lost a number of years to a health problem. From your post, you’re looking for “fun” not for a relationship. There are plenty of sites that might cater to those interests where honesty might not come back to bite you quite as hard.
But let me post this question to you: I’ve seen men put in their profiles that they’re looking for something serious, when they’re not, to get more women interested in them. I’ve seen women put that they aren’t looking for marriage as to not scare off guys. So — if you lie about your age, and she lies about her desire for a serious relationship — how’s date three or four going to look when she starts wondering / asking about where the relationship is going? You thought you were on good footing with someone that just wanted fun — but now she’s getting serious? After all, she did lie in her profile… How will that make you feel? Annoyed? Guilty?
In my humble opinion – if you’re more interested in keeping details of your life “fuzzy” perhaps you should start doing events that cater to the types of women you’re looking to meet — and meet them in person.
And while I feel for you and your situation, I intend to keep Dating Revolution as honest as possible. For now, that’s just a feedback loop from members, but we would gladly consider integrating id Level, Honesty Online, or some other (or multiple) verification services. Users can choose to receive a banner on their profile or not, it won’t be mandatory.
Best of luck to you in your search.
I prefer to under-promise and over-deliver.
Guys, guys, guys! I take it you’re still single/looking but are men of ‘principle’ right? Well hate to say it but you FAILED TO ANSWER MY ASSERTION – HAVE YOU NEVER TOLD A LIE TO GET YOUR ‘FOOT IN THE DOOR’, YOU NEVER LIED TO GET A JOB???Bullshit, research shows that 33% of what an applicant says in an interview is made up and a lie on the spot, as the interviewers try and catch the person out and if he REALLY needs the job (don’t tell me you don’t need to work guys..ha ha)he will stretch the truth..
LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE, you’ve convinced yourself you are God guys and you’re in fact a couple of unreflective hypocrites..For your information I did lie to a girlfriend I had 4 yrs ago, I thought she was younger than she actually turned out to be but felt chemistry, she wasn’t happy that I lied but as she realised I was a kind and nice guy and that I mean’t no harm by it she forgave me..How about you two moralising clowns start showing some forgiveness for a little human insecurity, besides putting make up on for women is LYING – to make them look younger, we all ‘lie’ and sell ourselves in that sense. At the end of the day being honest about my age brought me too much grief and judgemental unpleasantness, lying got me a lovely girlfriend for 4 months who admitted she might’ve rejected me upfront had i been honest about my age..Ps I knocked it on the head as had to move away from the area and would’ve folded anyway, which upset her she liked me so much, upset me too..Now grow up and admit like Real Men you’re not Godlike, perfect angels..such a posture on your parts is CHILDISH lack of self- reflection..As socrates said, true knowledge begins with self knowledge, you clearly lack that too!
I wouldn’t trust a couple of guys who claim they’ve never lied – they are FAR WORSE THAN A GUY WHO ADMITS HE TELLS ONE WHITE LIE IN ONE AREA OF HIS LIFE, AND DOESN’T LIKE DOING IT BUT FEELS HE HAS NO CHOICE..As the latter guy is human, imperfect and honest..unlike the ‘perfect’ honest ones who’ve just blotted out the b-s they’ve spouted as it suits a FALSE image of themselves as ‘good, serious guys’…and by the way ‘Ross Felix’ I can tell you a great number of people lie about their age on such sites and your site will be a disaster as it takes the freedom of the many people with insecurities about this to cover their insecurity away..You’re an idiot and a fantasist, I know your type – false ego pretensions of being honest allied to totally fantasical Unrealistic business plans…got a friend like you and ‘being so honest’ he went ahead and dated another woman whilst married yet ‘forgot’ it, HE WHO HAS A CLEAR CONSCIENCE HAS A BAD MEMORY, HE WHO CLAIMS HE HAS NEVER LIED IS THE BIGGEST OF LIARS!!
Extremely happily married, one 1 year old girl, one on the way. Never ever told a lie in ANY way shape or form to my wife. She trusts me implicitly, and I her. Pics at http://www.seasonalparadise.com
I don’t need to lie. I used to. But in the last 5 years I’ve not told a lie. In the last 10 years I’ve told 5 or 6 lies. 10 years ago I actually read a book on Gandhi…
Here’s the specific book, actually…
http://www.amazon.com/Higher-Standard-Leadership-Lessons-Gandhi/dp/1576750116/ref=sr_1_27?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250807864&sr=1-27
I took away two things from the book.
Firstly, that one can live a life of truth and secondly, that one can live a life of nonviolence. I considered this, and then decided I would try living non-aggressively and not lie. I figured it would be easy to be non-aggressive, and perhaps quite tough to not lie.
Wrong! So very wrong. I found it was actually a piece of cake to live life without lying. It was beautifully liberating. No white lies, no B.S., just the straight truth. People seem to appreciate it. Even when the truth isn’t so pretty.
I owned ALL my actions, for the first of time. They were mine, I considered them, and would take the heat for anything someone might consider not right. I owned my actions. What was nigh on impossible for me was living non-aggressively. Aggression defines a man. All men have fire in their belly, and I think its impossible for a man to live without aggression. Of course, choosing to express aggression as violence is another matter.
If you don’t want to tell someone something, just don’t tell them. If you feel the need to tell someone something. Tell them the truth. Its really not that hard. If you’ve made a commitment to someone and you break that commitment you should tell them. Get it off your chest. You can’t deny your reality. If you do, the consequences will be a. people won’t trust you, and b. your stress levels will be higher.
Try living 100% truthfully for a month. Hold yourself to not telling any white lies even. You’ll probably find it easier than you think. But you will definitely spend more time considering your actions. You’ll find yourself taking a different path on occasion. A path where you won’t feel like denying your reality.
btw, I forgive you.
(getting down from high horse, 2nd time)
The issue with having to mis-state your age to show up in search results of the type of people you seek reflects poor state of matching on dating sites is.
It’s not about our level of honesty, it’s a functionality problem. Dating sites refuse to address the issue and frankly don’t care to.
Why? Because their success hinges on marketing and lead generation and affiliates, so why should they bother fixing what’s broken when they will have a new crop of members next month?
Ghandi and abstaining form lying?? Ha ha ha – i thought so a bunch of moralising hippies/’spiritual types who don’t live in the real world…And you ‘never ever told a lie?’ YOU FUCKING LIAR!! I won the argument in my last post, why?? because I AM BEING HONEST and admitting my insecurities and talking about reality’s cynical maltreatment of people like me…YOu are married with a kid? Why didn’t you marry an adult?…just a joke, but AGAIN I HATE HYPOCRITES, ESPECIALLY ONES WITH RELIGIOUS (WHETHER IT BE BUDDHIST, HINDU OR WHATEVER) OVERTONES.. and that book on leadership you quote bud, you absolute LIAR, managers and leaders have the HIGHEST PROPORTION OF SOCIOPATHS research has shown, and they lie WITHOUT CONSCIENCE, WHEN I LIE IT MAKES ME VERY UNCOMFORTABLE, BUT I HAVE NO CHOICE GIVEN MY DILEMMA..
and one last thing Mark Brooks, i know buddhists who ‘abstain’ from violence and so forth yet they, like you, seem to be living in a fantasy world where they IGNORE THEIR IMPERFECTIONS, to quote a Zen Buddhist proverb: “the essence of Zen has nothing to do with morality, a man may sleep with his neighbours wife, steal his neighbours oxen and still practice Zen..Zen is in fact a way of relating to reality and accepting what is, including the dark side of human nature, whilst knowing that man is fundamentally good”..
One lie does NOT A BAD MAN MAKE, “ONE SWALLOW DOES NOT MAKE A SUMMER”, you’re methods of talking back to me are false and idiotic and have actually given me the courage to lie on these sites as your arguments have confirmed you are fantasists and ABOVE ALL THE BIGGEST LIARS! PS mark Brooks, you are just robotically and falsely trying to follow what you conceive of as Buddhism, something I understand at a deeper level than yourself:
“when you meet the Buddha on the road you must kill him”..= worshipping the Buddha as an icon or any of Buddhisms practices as ’set in stone’ for all situations/realities is both unrealistic and not Buddhism..thicko
at a shallow level Buddhism is worshipping of the Buddha and practices of abstinence, on a deeper level Buddhism is about adapting to the ever changing and infinitely fluid nature of reality and having faith that men are at heart in the main good…you have no faith in me but I have suffered more than you will ever do so, and thus i have more compassion than you could ever know..for all your pretensions to buddhism you have the rigid approach of moralising of Christianity.. You are very limited by your narrow/conventional prism of experience and cant’ cut me some slack because of your ignorance of my experience/dilemma…
A buddhist story, called ‘the two frogs’:
Two frogs lived at a pond all their lives and all they ever knew were the carp in the pond, and the only danger they ever knew was a pike fish who lived there too, and a pelican who lived near by. One day one of the frogs got lost and found himself at the Ocean!! He couldn’t believe what he saw, giant whales, terrifying and huge sharks, an ocean millions of times, maybye more, bigger than the pond..FInally after many days he found his way back to the pond and told his friend all that he had seen, and his friend from ego pretended and felt’ he understood..But he DIDN’T! When a whale was described all he could see in his minds eye was the carp in the pond, when a shark was described he could only relate it to the image/size of the pike, when he was told of the vastness of the oceans he said “oh i can imagine that, it’s easy!” but his ego hid the fact he could still only see the pond in his minds eye. But one day he too lost his way and found himself at the ocean, and then he really experienced and UNDERSTOOD what these things were…and he was forever HUMBLED”.
How about showing a little humility rather than shallow robotic copying of what you misunderstand Buddhism really is from your limited Western Mind?
Gabriel,
I wrote a much longer email in an attempt to assist you with your issue. I believe that both Mark and I have made some concrete suggestions that could potentially help you. Online dating isn’t for everyone, and perhaps with your specific needs, perhaps meeting someone in person would have better results for you.
All of that said, for my site, we are focused on honesty. It’s something that I’ve promised my members, and it’s a promise that I intend to do my best to keep.
Best of luck to you in your search for whatever it is you’re searching for.
Gabriel. I’m not buddhist, btw. Nor Christian.
Once again, I forgive you. ;-)
I hope you find what you’re looking for.
You patronising piece of scum Mark Brooks, and i’m not suprised you’re not Buddhist – as Buddhists have as a core tenet COMPASSION and not JUDGING others…In the manner that YOU judge others and show little compassion to myself you ARE ACTUALLY COMMITTING IMPLICIT ‘VIOLENCE’..In law for example there are crimes of ‘OMISSION’ not just ‘commission’ and i’d say you’re LACK OF COMPASSION is a crime of omission of humanity and therefore actually not just patronising, ultimately false and ‘ego’ driven DELUSION but in fact a ‘violence’ against me as a person, i find your attitude cruel, judgemental and callous..So you can fuck yourself, you patronising moron, with your assumed moral high ground when we all know that all you’re doing is repressing your ‘open’ expression’ of anger etc..YOU’RE NOT JUST A MORONIC CLIT-DICKED TWAT YOU DISGUST ME WITH YOUR SUPERIORITY COMPLEX AND SHALLOW PRETENCE THAT YOU’RE ‘BEYOND’ HUMAN..You aren’t a God but fake, imbecilic sham of a ‘man’..if you can call you that, i doubt it..So shove your ‘non-violence’ up your ass, ps Ghandi was a HYPOCRITE, HE SLEPT AROUND AND HAD LITTLE RESPECT FOR WOMEN..fool!!
Mark Brooks, your ‘forgiveness’ of me rings with patronising nastiness you absolute wanker (if you felt that you wouldn’t have to state it cunt), i’ll give you non-aggression you lowly worm! And your ‘understanding’ of everything is SHALLOW, SHALLOW, SHALLOW! You just pretend you’re perfect on the surface but just like priests and the like who also assume such a high ground repressing your TRUE NATURE results in extreme outbursts, eg reckon your’e actually a MURDERER or a RAPIST or terrorist or somesuch, like a pressure cooker human nature will explode if forced to be ‘perfect’.. You also don’t know the full story of Ghandi’s life, as i said he actually slept around and had no respect for the women in his life hmmmm. Don’t tell me you neglected to mention you MODEL YOURSELF ON THAT PART SECRETLY TOO OF HIS LIFE?? Go read a book properly and stop being the most shallow imbecile i’ve ever encountered, moralising ego-centric turd that you are…Clearly for you ‘failure is not an option…no it’s a lifestyle!” ha ha ha
Hey gabriel let’s turn down the crazy a bit, ok? You’re one comment from being banned.
David, wow I’m like really ’scared’! unlike you I’ve become fearless and very self aware and hate hypocrites, and now you’re implicitly trying to threaten me from showing a different opinion from your ’sheeple’ opinion..Seems i hit a raw nerve when i said you are a fantasist and ego-dreamer…ahhhh…diddums…
Whats really crazy is your lack of compassion and capacity to see an other view, YOU are nuts and your fantasy of politically correct (yawn) dating site WONT EVER WORK..
ps despite your absolute failure to answer any of my points, it’s still clear to me from your responses that for you “failure is not an option….no it’s a lifestyle!!”
Clearly list your questions in a way I can understand and I’ll respond. I won’t respond to unintelligible rants.
I kind of agree with Gabriel-g. I hate to say this but I’ve learned from experience that lying is NOT always the best policy. Some people are just placed in certain circumstances where lying would be the easiest thing to do. You cant really compare a 40 year old married man with a kid to a 40 year old single man whose never really dated. And I can honestly say looking back on my life their are time’s that i wish I had lied. I have a lot of regrets towards a few time’s that I was honest about certain things.